Summary
Highlights
Chris Hedges introduces Andrew Bacevich and his new book, referencing chroniclers at the end of empires who see the looming disintegration caused by an inept and corrupt ruling class and a disengaged populace. Bacevich's work, like Chalmers Johnson's trilogy, highlights how and why the American empire is disintegrating.
Hedges and Bacevich discuss the concept of "The Church of America the Redeemer," a virtual congregation built on the idea of American exceptionalism and a divinely inspired mission to transform the world. Bacevich notes this idea, tracing back to the republic's founding, has persisted despite accumulating evidence against American exceptionalism after 1945.
Hedges questions why the rhetoric of America as a redeemer persists despite the reality of its projection of power since Vietnam. Bacevich admits the persistence of myth despite facts is a puzzle, suggesting that those in power benefit from maintaining the myth to sustain their elevated status. He cites the quick dismissal of failures in Afghanistan and Iraq in favor of new conflicts like the proxy war in Ukraine.
Hedges speculates whether the denial of unpalatable reality and lack of accountability are features of all late empires. Bacevich agrees, drawing parallels with the French and British empires after World War II, which clung to their past influence despite clear signs of unsustainability, like the Suez crisis.
Bacevich explains Carl Becker's idea that history is contingent and serves the present, arguing that Americans tend to select parts of the past to reassure themselves and sustain myths. He illustrates this with the narrative of appeasing Hitler before WWII and how current efforts, like the proxy war in Ukraine, aim to restore a sense of American dominance.
The discussion turns to how new history is formulated, with Bacevich suggesting it ought to be organic and incorporate ignored voices like those highlighted in the 1619 Project. While he critiques the 1619 Project for potentially oversimplifying by making the African American experience dominant, he acknowledges its success in giving due recognition to Black Americans in history, moving them beyond a mere footnote.
Hedges asks why policymakers perpetuate wars, even when they know they are mistakes, citing the Afghan and Pentagon Papers. Bacevich attributes this to those in power wanting to remain in power, avoiding the perceived penalties of honesty. He also explains that presidents, despite their perceived power, are constrained by circumstances and advisers, leading them to conform rather than push for radical change.
Bacevich draws parallels between the Vietnam and Iraq wars, noting their avoidability, costliness, blunders by leaders, and the resulting quagmires and poisonous legacies. He reflects on his own evolving understanding of Vietnam, realizing that the Cold War framework that once justified it was bogus and led to immense, meaningless suffering.
Hedges reads a passage from Bacevich's book about being a conservative wary of revolutionary movements but acknowledging that incremental change is no longer sufficient. Bacevich admits he doesn't have a clear blueprint for this necessary radicalism, but the Trump era convinced him the republic is in serious danger and incrementalism, like that offered by Joe Biden, is insufficient. He questions whether an FDR-style New Deal is applicable now, given the post-industrial and more diverse society.